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Welcome to Ellis Toussier-Ades Bigio-Antebi's
Favorite Livelong Correspondence
This is some of my correspondence with doctors, scientists, and persons taking growth hormone or who are also on a life extension program. You will see we learn from each other. I post this here because I think it is of interest to others who are starting on a life extension program to read all of it. I have made an effort to put it in some order, but the order of importance is random... all of it important.
A letter to Howard Turney, now legally renamed Lazarus Long, who has taken growth hormone since 1991. Lazarus is probably the person that has taken growth hormone for anti-aging purposes longer than anybody else on earth.
On September 12, 1998, Ellis Toussier wrote:
Hello Howard,
I read your story. It seems to me I also read it in Dr. Ronald Klatz's book "Grow Young on HGH" I am also taking growth hormone, DHEA, and melatonin, but so far only for three months. It is interesting to know that you were on it for five years when you wrote your story... by now it is probably more than five years...
I invite you to visit my own page, which outlines my program and has some interesting things (I think) in addition. My program has 8 points, which you will read about there, and I also have a "Life Links" and "Favorite Correspondence" link. I have not put your page on my "Life Links" yet, but I will do it soon, because your story is very interesting... I explain the short run, you explain the long run...
I am taking 1 i.u. per day, of Humatrope, taken twice a day. How much are you taking, and which is your favorite brand?
I invite you to visit my page:
Sincerely,
Ellis Toussier
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:45:00 -0500
Dear Mr. Toussier,
Thank you for your interest and your interesting page which I enjoyed very much.
Yes, I have been on Hgh for 7 and one half years now, and it just gets better. I am now 67 but feel and function as I did in my late 30s or early 40s in every way.
I also take almost all of the things you do, but I take 200 mg of DHEA per day, which is more than you do. I also take 5mg of deprenyl and 4 mg of hydergine per day. I am still taking 1 IU of Hgh per day, if I miss a day or two once in a while it doesn't hurt, when I have to travel. If I am going to be gone more than 3 days I take it with me.
I have legally changed my name for my new adventure to Lazarus Long. Look at our web site. New-Utopia.com
My very best to you, and please let us continue to correspond.
Sincerely,
Lazarus/Howard
20 or 30 years to Forever?
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:13:47 GMT
From: David Bean
There was a guest on the Art Bell show sometime in late February or early March (1998) who made the statement (as best as I can recall -- it was late and I was groggy) something to the effect that if we could last (hang on) another 20 (30?) years that we would have a good shot at living forever (barring accident, whatever). This would be due to advances in nutrition and/or cellular manipulation technology? Was this Dr. Klatz from this site, Dr. Robert White (from ?), or someone else? What sources would justify a more or less definite statement of this type? Thanks, DB
============
20 to 30 years to a long time is realistic.
I am unsure of who the speaker was on the show mentioned.
I would however add my opinion in favor of the statment based on being in the anti-aging field for the last 6 years, 3 years of biochemistry and molecular biology education and 2 years as the President of the 2nd largest anti-aging research company in the U.S.A.
The time line works out as follows:
3-5 years to inexpensive cheap genetic diagnostics for predispositions for many genes involved in the major causes of death.
7 years to the Human Genome is completely known (shortens to ~3 years if Craig Ventner succeeds with his new startup company)
5-15 years for major hormone/drug interventions to be understood and moved to market. In other words to comprehend pathways in the body where under/over production of various signaling factors leads to a pathology involved in aging and to offset these with supplements, promoters or inhibitors.
5-15 years for organ replacements derived from animals.
10-20 years for synthetic cell lines/tissues/organs. These initially start out as cell lines augmented with a few genes of use (i.e. insulin synthesis) and eventually move to entire synthetic genomes.
20-30 years for nanotechnology interventions within the human body for microscale repair rather than macroscale replacement.
The problem which most people have failed to realize is that to be "immortal" will require giving up the human body itself. You have to have a distributed, replicated intelligence to avoid the many hazards the universe will present over the very long term.
Fortunately there are solutions for this problem and they are probably only 30-40 years out.
I would make the very bold statement, that for many people existing today, who live in affluent societies, if you take the proper precautions and are willing to make certain sacrifices in present lifestyle that you would have a very good chance to live forever (within the limits the universe allows).
=============
What is "The Human Genome"?
Your timeline is very interesting, but there are some things I don't understand, which I wish you would explain briefly... What is the "Human Genome" ? How would knowing more about genes help to cure deseases or to extend life of an adult?
Who is Craig Ventner, and what is his startup company doing?
When you say we will have to give up the human body, are you saying that we will be able to continue "alive" with our memory inside a computer? That is a terrific idea, but somehow I can't imagine me "thinking" inside a computer... It would be like me, but it wouldn't be me.
============
correspondence to Ellis Toussier from Robert Bradbury
Ellis,
The Human Genome is the complete set of 3 billion+ "letters" (or DNA units) which make up the "program" which creates, develops, matures, repels invaders, enables its own reproduction (in conjunction with another, largely similar genome). Each species has its own "genome" which dictates the life course of that species. Defects in the human genome (a mutation in one or more letters usually) are responsible for the 5-10,000 "genetic" diseases, some of which show up in childhood but some not until old age. Most of the diseases of old age,such as heart disease and cancer, have components which involve defective or sub-optimal genes in the DNA of individuals. "Aging" itself is a result of the fact that nature has not had enough time to evolve a genome which is able to repair and maintaine our bodies for longer periods.
At the major genome conference last year, one of the leaders of one of the major U.S. genome centers discussed the fact that the technology that allows you to take a genome apart is the foundation of the technology which allows you to put a genome together. That will ultimately lead to the ability to create "new" genomes which construct cells and tissues which "do not age".
Already, you can take a piece of your skin, grow many square feet of new skin and have it "replaced". This is done with burn victims. It is not a small step, but extending this to other tissues and organs with your own cells, then artificial cells will occur.
Craig Ventner was the founder of two related companies, "The Institute for Genomic Research" (TIGR) and "Human Genome Sciences" (HGS); you should be able to find them using the search engines or try The Institute for Genomic Research or www.hgs.com (maybe?). His third company will be attempting to accelerate the "reading" of the human genome. You can probably find discussions about this if you use the search options for his name at Science or Nature - Science Magazine or Nature Magazine (these may require subscriptions, I'm not sure).
As far as thinking inside a computer goes, the thing which most people do not realize is that your brain is a computer. Transferring you from one computer to another is not simple, but I think around 5 different methods have been proposed. Some of them would make it relatively impossible for you to know that you would even be "in" the computer. If you want to find out more about this, you should do an "Altavista" Search for the term "mind uploading". There are many pages of dicussion about this.
Whether or not it is "you" begs the question of who you are. I know many man (and women) who would claim that the person they go to bed with at night is not the same person they wake up with in the morning. There are some similarities to be sure but they are somehow "different". Many philosophers think that it is only the continuity of memory which identifies an individual, and this as well as many other thought patterns could be transferred between computers.
Robert Bradbury
======================
I wrote back to Robert Bradbury with a list of my favorite links and a brief mention of my personal program, including EDTA and DMSA to remove mercury and lead from my body.
======================
Ellis,
Thank you for the links. Some of them I am aware of and others are news to me. I'm not at the point where I am "treating" myself to the degree you are, but I think most of what you are doing seems reasonable.
Note that it isn't the lead and mercury which really represent the key metals you should remove from your body. It is the copper and especially iron which can potentially be "pro-oxidant" free radical generators. Women have a natural process which removes the iron especially, while men do not. EDTA therapy or blood donation have the maximum effect in my opnion by removing the free radical generating metals which are in much greater abundance than the commonly considered "toxic" metals.
The real trick of EDTA/blood donation is to get your iron level to "slightly" above the anemia level (which isn't that well defined) and keep it there. EDTA therapy may be less specific than blood donation since blood donation preferentially removes the iron in red blood cells.
With regard to skin replacement, current skin is by no means a complete solution. They have not learned how to include many features of "normal" skin such as hair follicles. It may or may not be able to deal with scaring to some degree. The real problem comes down to the fact that you need to grow the skin out of what are called "totipotent" cells which have the ability to generate a number of other cell types instead of simple epidermal skin cells. There is hope that some day one will be able to take normal cells and "send them back" to the totipotent stage (witness the Dolly phonomena). I don't have the specific company names which do this, but I would suggest that any well known "burn clinic" or perhaps the Red Cross would be a useful place to start.
If you really are interested in following the biotechnology industry, the best thing to get is "Genetic Engineering News" from Mary Ann Liebert Assoc. Publishers (I think). If you can find a good molecular biology glossary on the web and read GEN from time to time, that will keep you up-to-date.
Robert Bradbury
==================
I wrote back to Robert Bradbury asking who is "Dolly"
===================
Ellis,
"Dolly" was the sheep that was "cloned" in a lab in Britian. I believe that it was recently replicated by a lab in Japan, so it may be considered "real".
Several years ago this was thought to be "impossible". It demonstrates that the DNA from "adult" cells (the cells in the intestine in the case of the sheep) remain "totipotent" and can produce an identical copy of an "individual", if the nucleus (which contains the DNA of the genetic program) is inserted into an environment (egg/embryonic cell?) which "resets" the DNA to the "ground 0" state, allowing it to develop into a complete animal.
The only question which remains open at this time is whether the length of the telomeres (repeated DNA at the ends of the chromosomes, responsible, it is thought for "counting" cell divisions and functioning perhaps as a"check" on unlimited cancer cell growth) gets extended back to its "normal" length. A normal length would allow a normal lifespan, a shorter length, would probably lead to accelerated aging (of at least tissues which contain many dividing cells) a longer length could lead to accelerated cancer development in those same tissues. Only longevity and disease studies in the in the "cloned" animals will shed light on this question.
Robert Bradbury
hGH dosages
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:23:35 GMT
From: Randall Lusson
I have an acquaintance who has been receiving injections of hGH, actually Serostim, produced by Serono Labs. He started out at 24 IU a month, then was 32 IU, and now again upped to 54 IU a month.
The reason for increasing the dosage, so his doctor says, is that his IGF-1 levels do not seem to be rising. After 4 months at 32 IU a month, his IGF-1 level is only at 185.
My concern is that 54 IU a month is way too high of a dosage, which could lead to acromegly, carpal tunnel syndrome, and a host of other unknown complications. Do you have information that could either confirm or deny my apprehensions about this dosage.
The physician claims that she, along with a number of her patients experience rises in IGF-1 levels only at these high of dosages. Could it be because she is using Serostim as opposed to other hGH products (i.e. Genotropin)?
Also, are there certain amino acids that could be used to block the hGH inhibitors that might help raise the IGF-1 level as opposed to increasing the dosage to 54 IU a month.
Any information that you can supply would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Randall Lusson
==============
54 I.U. / month lead to acromegaly?
I don't see why you think 54 I.U. per month is too high. In the original experiment by Dr. Daniel Rudman, he used a dosage of about 15 or 16 I.U. per week, ie, about 60 per month. IGF-1 levels were targeted to be about 850... Although I have read in many places that Dr. Rudman later felt that the dosages he used were too high, I am not sure that he was overly concerned, because none of his 12 subjects showed any sign that anything was ever drastically wrong, and all benefitted, and all wanted to continue receiving the treatment.
Your friend has a very low level of IGF-1. I know that it is the vogue to have a lower dosage than Daniel Rudman used, about 1 I.U. per day, but I think that since your friend is being supervised by a doctor, and a lower dosage didn't get his IGF-1 above 200, I think that now his low level of IGF-1 merits an increased dosage to 54 I.U.'s per month (as his doctor has recommended) which is less than 2 I.U.'s per day. This does not seem like cause for alarm to me. Your friend might be one of the GH deficient persons like Daniel Rudman looked for to be in his experiment.
Besides, he wouldn't get acromegaly without having other symptoms before, and surely it doesn't seem that HGH would act so quickly that the dosage couldn't be lowered in time, if such would ever be the case.
=============
symptoms
If I remember correctly, quite a few of Rudman's original test subjects did experience certain complications, including carpal tunnel syndrome. Furthermore, most physicians working in this area, including Chein and also Dr. Elmer Cranton do not advise using doses of more than 16 to 20 IU a month.
The idea in hormone replacement therapy is to return hormone levels to those when we were young, and not to greatly supersede those levels. The endorcrine system is a complicated web of feedback mechanisms. And just as lowering the level of hormones, as occurs with age, brings about "symptoms" or complications, so can elevating hormone levels beyond what is "normal" bring about complications.
=================
Rudman's article didn't mention carpal tunnel syndrome
I have read Rudman's entire article over and over, and I cannot find any reference to carpal tunnel syndrome, or any other syndrome or any serious, bad, secondary effects.
(from Rudman's 1990 Article in New England Journal of Medicine)
It says:
"At the beginning of our study, adverse reactions to human growth hormone were thought to be unlikely because physiologic doses were being used. Furthermore, similar or larger doses have not caused undesired reactions in children or young adults. Nevertheless, it remained possible that this dose, when given for six months to older subjects, might cause some manifestation of hypersomatotropism, such as edema, hypertension, diabetes, or cardiomegaly. Although none of these conditions developed, there were small increases in the mean systolic blood pressure and fasting plasma glucose concentration of the group of men who received growth hormone."
The dosage that Rudman used was, in his words:
"approximately 0.03 mg per kilogram three times a week, was based on published estimates of the rate of growth hormone secretion in young men and was comparable to or smaller than doses given previously to children with growth hormone deficiency and young adults. The plasma IGF-1 responses to this dose in these older men were similar in magnitude to those in younger people. That "replacement" rather than pharmacologic doses were being administered was confirmed by the plasma IGF-1 measurements, which remained within the range for healthy young adults (500 to 1500 U per liter) throughout the treatment period."
According to Eli Lilly, at that time 1 milligram = 2.6 I.U., so:
0.03 mg per kilogram three times a week, in a 75 Kg. man would be:
(.03) x 75 x 3 = 2.25 mg x 3 = 6.75 mg/week = 17.5 I.U.
From this we see that Rudman never mentioned carpal tunnel syndrome, and specifically only said that systolic blood pressure and plasma glucose levels rose a little bit. He never intended to give these men an overdose, and it seems that at the end of his experiment he believed his dosages (which were increased up or down, as shown in my previous post) were O.K., because he mentions that the plasma IGF-1 levels always remained within the range for healthy young adults (500 to 1500 U per liter). I'm sure that if he had seen any serious bad side effects during the 6 months of the experiment, he was fully prepared to reduce the dosage, or discontinue the experiment, because he did adjust the dosages in several men.
So... I've also read the reference to carpal tunnel syndrome in Rudman's experiment in several places, but I don't know where it comes from, because it was not in Rudman's article published in the N.E.J.M. Perhaps he wrote it in a later article. Or maybe somebody wrote it to bolster his opinion, and it has been getting repeated from one author to the other since then.
==========
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome reported by Rudman in 1993
I found it... It is not in his report of 1990 but in Clinical Endocrinology (Oxf) Volume 39 Issue 4 in a report entitled "Carpal tunnel syndrome and gynaecomastia during growth hormone treatment of elderly men with low circulating IGF-I concentrations. Cohn L, Feller AG, Draper MW, Rudman IW, Rudman D Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1993 Oct 39:4 417-25"
The full report can be found and read at : BioMednet.com
and search for "carpal tunnel syndrome, growth hormone," but in brief:
There were 10 cases of carpal tunnel syndrome, 4 of gynaecomastia, and 3 of hyperglycaemia, in a group of 62 men, of which there were 27 dropouts during the experiment. These secondary effects occurred in those men where IGF-1 increased above 1.0 units/ml. He also found that body composition response (burn fat, increase muscle) was better in the men with IGF-1 between .5 and 1.0 than in the men with IGF-1 between 1.0 and 1.5
So... don't go over 1000, and probably best to stay close to 500.
Q.E.D.
================
HGH Dosing
I recommend dosing HGH in a physiologic pattern. There seems to be less required and it would stand to reason that there should be increased benefit without side-effects. We recommend twice daily injections. To start we insist everyone is on a complete supplement and a good secretagoge, then we check levels. The usual starting dose is 0.4 i.u. subcutaneous each morning then 0.6 i.u. subcutaneous each evening. This will continue for two months then the level is rechecked. If you give HGH once a day you need to far exceed the physiologic level to boost IGF-1 sufficiently. This is even more marked for those using a semi-weekly or weekly method. I aim for the IGF-1 level to be around 350 - 500 ng/ml. The levels I'm proposing are in the high edge of physiologically normal for a young adult.
James R Hughes, MD
=======================February, 14, 2001
Rejuvenation, Post 5341
I still recommend a range of IGF-1 for optimal replacement of 300-500. The absolute minimum effective level is probably ~225 in males and ~275 in females.
With levels over 500, you dramatically increase side-effects, and don't really gain any more advantage. I still recommend daily (or twice daily) injections. The 3 times/week regimen gives you more of a sensation because the levels fluctuate so much. In reality, you have peak IGF-1's above 500, and troughs below 250. There is substantial negative feedback with this regimen, and higher levels of somatostatin.
James R Hughes, MD
====================
Very confusing!!!
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: hGH dosages (Randall Lusson)
Re: HGH Dosing (James R Hughes, MD)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:57:20 GMT
From: Bruce
Can anyone out there explain the recommended dose of hgh? It seems that each time I read something it's different. I've seen everything from daily dosing of 4IU to weekly doses of the same amount, to twice daily doses of higher amounts and so on. If a healthy adult male wishes to maintain youthful health and vigor what's the right dose? Thank you to anyone who can help.
Bruce
==================
"Very confusing"... really very simple: play it safe, then...
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: hGH dosages (Randall Lusson)
Re: HGH Dosing (James R Hughes, MD)
Re: Very confusing!!! (Bruce)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:11:59 GMT
From: Ellis Toussier
Bruce, it really is simple: play it safe, then take a blood test and remain the same or increase, depending on your result, and where you want to go. First of all, I suggest you should be under the supervision of a doctor that you trust. He might start you off on secretagogues, or on a very low level of GH such as 4 i.u. per week, or 6 i.u., depending on your age and your present level of IGF-1. Then in a month you take another blood sample and adjust the dose at that time, to shoot for a level of IGF-1 of 350 to 500.
Forget 4 i.u. per day... Out of the question, to begin with.
I suggest you have to buy and read carefully "Grow Young With HGH" by Dr. Ronald Klatz, which has plenty of graphs and a whole chapter on the subject of dosage. It is available on this site, or any online bookstore.
============ EDTA CHELATION THERAPY ============
From: Elmer M. Cranton, M.D. "Mt. Rogers & Mt. Rainier Clinics"
To:
Subject: Re: Provider Search
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:08:12 -0400
Dear Ellis,
A list of chelation and alternative medicine doctors can be obtained from ACAM States are cut up by multiple area codes and
ZIP codes.
Search the entire state for a wider selection. Also search adjacent state(s) if you live close to a state line. Otherwise you may unnecessarily restrict your choices of doctor or clinic. This is not an endorsement. Doctors must only pay their membership dues to be on the referral list. Educate yourself by reading all the chelation information on my website at Chelation Also, read my book "Bypassing Bypass", available online at Best Vitamins. Then visit the prospective doctor's office:
-> Interview the doctor.
-> Take a tour of the clinic.
-> Interview staff and patients. The doctor and staff will usually talk with you and show you around without charge if no service is provided and you are only there to become acquainted.
-> Is the doctor a fully licensed and credentialed MD or DO?
-> Are other licensed and credentialed staff present?
-> Is the clinic or office sanitary and modern?
-> Are procedures described in my books and on my website being followed? Be cautious if the following are true:
-> Are EDTA infusions being given in less than 3 hours? (half the dose in half the time is not as effective).
-> Are infusions given without EDTA for treatment of atherosclerosis -- so-called nutritional IVs. These may be useful
separately for other purposes but I see no reason to give them without EDTA during a course of chelation therapy. I add
vitamins and minerals to the chelation bottle at no extra charge.
-> Is hydrogen peroxide given IV as part of a chelation program? Hydrogen peroxide may be useful for some conditions but I
know of no evidence that intravenous hydrogen peroxide provides additional benefit to EDTA for treating atherosclerosis.
-> Are trace elements such as zinc, selenium, chromium, manganese,and copper added to the IVs? I believe that trace elements are best given by mouth and have a potential for side effects given intravenously.
If you get a good feeling about the doctor and staff, in light of the above, it is probably OK. Go for it! You are welcome to print out the full Protocol and nurse's orders for EDTA chelation therapy from my web site and tell the doctor that you wish that to have that be the protocol for your course of therapy. This protocol is available at Protocol Expect some disagreement and variations from doctor to doctor. Ask hard questions and then decide what is best for you. Ask for the scientific evidence of safety and effectiveness, if methods differ from what I recommend. The studies summarized on my website are based on more than 40 years of experience and a million or more patients.
All of my chelation patients (and every adult who will take my advice, whether or not on chelation) take the Basic Antiox(TM)
Packets as nutritional supplements twice daily, available at a discount online at Best Vitamins. Save some money and check it out. Those packets are quite effective by themselves as a preventive, and are the foundation for any other treatment such as chelation therapy, or even angioplasty or bypass surgery. The exact formula is listed and can be compared with other products available. The Basic Preventive-5(TM) Multiple Supplement is contained in the more complete Basic Antiox (TM) Packets, but can also be purchased separately at a very low cost. It is the most cost-effective and complete daily multiple on the market. I personally recommend this line of high-quality nutritional supplements for all my patients, and for everyone for preventive purposes. They are manufactured by Advanced Medical Nutrition, Inc. (AMNI) in Hayward, California. I personally assure you of the highest quality, freshness, and potency of AMNI products. Anti-oxidant nutritional supplements deteriorate with time and it is important that they be used soon after manufacture. Products that lose potency over time should have an expiration date stamped on the label. Discount nutritional supplements are available online at Best Vitamins
Sincerely,
E. M. Cranton, MD.
====================================
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 21:28:01 -0400
From: Tom Matthews
To: etoussier@HOTMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Growth Hormone, Deprenyl, EDTA chelation therapy, etc.
posted on BioNet.com / Stanford University
No one seems to be responding to your post, so I will take a stab at it.
Ellis Toussier: I am a 52 year old male, thin, in good health, and interested in rejuvenation (if possible) and life extension in
goodhealth (which seems entirely possible.)
Tom: With this, I agree.
Ellis Toussier: From what I have read on the Internet in various places, I decided to start taking growth hormone
Tom: In my opinion, unless you have already done them (which you show below that you have not), there are many other aspects of your life which you should analyze and possibly modify first in order to optimize your health and potential longevity. I prioritize them in the following order:
1. Diet (ie standard whole foods).
2. Exercise (stretching, weight work, and aerobics)
3. Supplements of "well studied" vitamins, minerals and others.
4. Supplements of "promotors" of beneficial systemically produced chemicals which decline with age.
5. Direct augmentation of such chemicals in a manner consistent with the body's physiology.
6. Other direct augmentation of such chemicals.
7. Supplementation of chemicals not in food, not produced by thebody,and not closely related to such.-Tom
Ellis Toussier: I started to take Growth Hormone at the rate of about 6 i.u. per week, which seems to be a conservative amount to begin with, and which I might change after monitoring blood samples, etc.
Tom: I classify use of GH directly as something in category 6 above. It is not currently possible to take it in the physiological manner in which the body produces it. Although, with small doses this problem is not going to cause any negative effects.
Ellis Toussier: I have also read many articles referring to DHEA and melatonin, so I am interested in taking these also.
Tom: In my opinion, these are in category 5 above and should have been tried before GH.
Ellis Toussier: I have read that melatonin is very good to avoid free-radical damage in the brain,
Tom: It is also a potent anticancer product among many, many other benefits.
Ellis Toussier: and of course I am interested in living longer with a functioning brain. And I have read that DHEA is also quite wonderful, etc.
Tom: Far less well studied and more controversial than melatonin, but yes, I believe it is important for any male over 40 to supplement to youthful serum levels (of both DHEA and DHEAS).
Ellis Toussier: But... I have tremendous fear that taking synthetic or supplemental hormones might unbalance my natural hormone production.
Tom: I think you should fear that (if at all) just as much or more for GH.
Ellis Toussier: If anybody can comment on this, I would be interested in reading your comments.
Tom: Both melatonin and DHEA supplements are, I believe, identical with the chemical manufactured by the body. In both cases, there are certainly feedback mechanisms which may reduce the body's production (and thereby waste some of what you are consuming). However, although there may be some, I can't think of a single instance where the body's production of anything become "atrophied" (and thus not restartable) because of copious exogenous available amounts. If you are thinking of "balance" as between different body chemicals, there are also general feedback mechanisms which cover most things there also except for wild overdosing. DHEA should be well regulated with respect to balancing through the multitudinous pathways of the adrenal cortex (where it is naturally produced and is a precursor to many other chemicals) and downstream cellular metabolites. Melatonin is the end product of a chain which normally begins with tryptophan. It is taken up by all tissues and is rapidly metabolized and eliminated.
Ellis Toussier: Secondly, I have not seen many posts at all on this board, which is one of the best anywhere, referring toEDTA chelation therapy.
Tom: That is because most people appear to consider it to be dangerous except when needed for rescue from heavy metal poisoning. By the way, I would place EDTA in category 7 above.
Ellis Toussier: EDTA chelation therapy is a process which is done to remove lead and other bad metals from the blood and the brain. It is supposed to be the standard and best treatment for this. There are a lot of claims that it also helps heart patients by cleaning up their circulatory system, but I don't want to list the pros and cons of that because it is not to the point.
Tom: I think that there may be better methods to accomplish such "clean-up" (and I don't mean by "reaming" the arteries).
Ellis Toussier: My question is: why hasn't somebody tried this for the only purpose of cleaning up their blood and brain of lead, even if it is not for a case of "lead poisoning"? I am certain that even a little bit of lead and mercury in my blood and brain is not good, so why do I have to wait to be diagnosed with an extreme case of lead or mercury poisoning?
Tom: This is a good question. However, there are many things such as this which have not been studied. Personally, I do take 100-200 mg of EDTA daily (in a garlic capsule from LEF) just for such a purpose.
Ellis Toussier: And I'm positive that in 52 years of living in contamination, I must have a lot of lead and perhaps mercury and cadmium, maybe even DDT, etc. and other junk in my body.
Tom: I don't think the EDTA will do anything for the DDT. I think it works only for metals.
Ellis Toussier: So what are your comments if I want to have EDTA chelation therapy just for the purpose of extending my life and my brain? Am I crazy, or am I right?
Tom: Neither. The idea is credible, but the scientific evidence is not there yet. If you try it, remember that is will remove all metals and not just the ones which you are "aiming" at. Therefore, you should probably take some mineral supplements.
Ellis Toussier: You can find many articles referring to EDTA chelation therapy by doing a search on any search engine for "edta, chelation, chelation therapy"
Tom:Yes, I have done this on medline several times before (and just now)
Ellis Toussier: I am also very interested in protecting my brain from getting to the state in which my father was, when he died at age 93. He did not have Alzheimer's, but he didn't have any memory either... I have read that the brain starts to lose the amount of dopamine it makes after age 40.
Tom: I don't think it is at all that "absolute".
Ellis Toussier: (everything seems to happen after age 40...)
Tom: Not to me, I am 60 and have little noticable decline.
Ellis Toussier: After your brain has lost 80% of its dopamine production, you are a certified victim of Parkinson's desease.
Tom: Not everyone gets Parkinson's. The French woman who just died at 122? did not have it.
Ellis Toussier: Then they start to give you a medicine called Deprenyl,
Tom: Which I would consider to be in category 7 above.
Ellis Toussier: which avoids or slows down further loss of whatever it is that produces the dopamine. So why should I wait? If everybody loses their ability to produce dopamine in their brain, am I crazy to want to take Deprenyl before I lose 60% of it, even if I am not diagnosed as having Parkinson's, now or ever?
Tom: In my opinion, there are antiaging benefits to supplementing deprenyl (start out at 1 mg per day and work up to 2 mg per day as you get older), but not everyone agrees with this. However, there are many less controversial brain antiaging supplements which should come first (in category 3 above). A number of these are contained in a product available from LEF called "Cognitex"
Ellis Toussier: I don't even know what dopamine is necessary for, and I'm not sure anybody knows exactly what it does, but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it, and you wish you did!
Tom: These are critical decisions. You need to study more how these chemicals are produced and what they do before you start gobbling controversial pills.
Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION - http://www.lef.org 800-544-4440
============ CHELATION THERAPY, CONTINUED ============
Forum, The Life Extension Foundation
Started on: July 14, 1998
07-14-98 Ellis Toussier etoussier@hotmail.com
I am a 52 year old male... 53 next month... thin, and in good health. I have become interested in methods to slow down the aging process, since 52 is about that age when this becomes interesting... I have been taking anti-oxidant vitamins and minerals for several years, I have taken growth hormone releasing amino acids for some time, but now I think the time has come for more direct action, so I have consulted a doctor specialist in this and now I am taking a low dose high frequency of HGH.
But I have stumbled upon another subject on the internet, which seems to be controversial but which may be of some value for life extension. EDTA Chelation therapy is a method to remove lead and mercury and other heavy metals from the blood and brain. There is no controversy about this... all doctors accept that this is the preferred treatment for lead poisoning, and other heavy metals poisoning. (The controversy is whether or not it is good for heart patients.) I am not at the point that the levels of lead in my blood are defined as lead poisoning yet, but I know that living in a polluted city my blood levels of lead and mercury must be higher than zero, which to me is unacceptable...
From my logic, any level of lead or mercury in my blood above zero is not especially good for my brain or my health. EDTA chelation therapy poses no big threat, and the cost is about what you would pay to have the radiator of my car cleaned and repainted. I think my body is worth more than a car, so the cost is not going to deter me. Does anybody have any comments to make on this, or any precautions you think I should take if I want to persue this course as one of the methods I want to take to have a long and healthy life? The doctor I have seen usually has performed this therapy for heart disease patients, but he agrees that it will lower the levels of lead and mercury in my body, and that it is not at all "dangerous".
DISCUSSION:
07-18-98 Loren Parks lparks@aracnet.com
There is no question but what EDTA has good benefits for some people. Some 25 years ago I was invited by an M.D. in the Kansas City area to study his patients and interview them. He had given them, as I recall, about 2.5 grams of EDTA in the divalent or tetravalent state on an empty stomach with some fruit juice. One man I studied with Doppler ultrasound had had a leg his daughter described as "black, not dark blue". I found his skin shiny pink and his posterior tibial artery open. He was in his eighties. Others had had chest angina and stroke and told of their loss of pain and mobility of a formerly barely operative and ridgid arm.
The downside is that you can start dissolving gallstones and one can lodge in the duct. Also you can unknit broken bone repairs. Nausea and diarrhea can accompany the administration of EDTA. I believe it does not chelate mercury but some of the cysteine compounds do. In fact, just what EDTA chelation actually does chemically within the body seems to be still open to question. Empirically it has taken people out of nursing homes and put them back into the community in some cases.
07-18-98 George T. Stallings shofar@wave-net.net
Chelation Therapy is excellent. My brother and other acquaintences have taken it for years. Make certain you eat a banana or two. Potassium is necessary for it does take this from your body. [Supplementation of essential minerals is advised, since many minerals will be sequestered and removed from the body, depending on the chelating agent used. --Tom]
It does miracles for coronary build up. Many, many doctors take it personallly. It has been approved by N. C. but the DR. who heads the medicare will not approve it. I know personally people who have been restored to active lives from its effects. It usually takes from 10 to 20 treatments. Don't worry about it if your doctor is experienced in it.
07-18-98 Sean Daibhi Mac an Airchinnigh quinta@earthling.net
The problem with your logic about costs, i.e., fixing your radiator, is that one or two bursts ain't goin' to do it. I have had series of chelation twice in my life time. The first was with the pioneer of chelation, Dr. Ray Evers (deceased). I have seen the best results from his program in myself and others. I just completed a two-month series of chelation, $3000 @ $100 a pop. It was not as effective as 20 years ago, but for those of use with atherosclerosis I just consider the alternative.
[However, there are proven and permanent dietary and supplemental alternatives - see LEF's Atherosclerosis protocol at this web site. --Tom]
I took chelation to relieve the stress on my arteries until I could take other measures (via Life Extension)--it worked! I have significant and major improvement in the blood flow of the arteries. I feel I have a new lease on life for two reasons: Life Extension programs and exercise. While I plan to continue with the hormones and enzymes for another six months, and then scale back, [Most of the theraputic measures in the LEF protocol should be continued perpetually. --Tom] I feel that I am going to live now for a very long time. Clean arteries and a healthy heart and youthful hormones are the magic bullets to life and health.
Sean
07-27-98 Jimmy Walter jwalter1@tampabay.rr.com
EDTA has been proven NOT to work:
Quackwatch: Chelation Therapy.
Dr. Cranton, the leading advocate of chelation and who wrote "By Pass Bypass", never replied to my email when confronted with this article.
[Comment: I think it would be more correct to state that EDTA chelation therapy has not been proven to work for all people and for all of the diseases to which it had been applied. There is scientific evidence that it does work for certain things. As far as the "quackwatch" web site is concerned, if we believed everything they say, we would be taking very few if any supplements and most of us would not be enjoying the enormous health and energy we are gaining from our current regimens! --Tom]
07-30-98 Ellis Toussier etoussier@hotmail.com
Dr Cranton certainly does answer your attack on EDTA Chelation Therapy as a possible, cheaper, safer, and better alternative to heart bypass surgery. Not only is there a page called "A Professor of Cardiology Critiques Bypass Surgery" written by Dr. Thomas A. Preston, Professor of Medicine at the University of Washington School of Medicine and Chief of Cardiology at Pacific Medical Center, Seattle, Washington; there is also a page called "If EDTA Chelation Therapy is so good, Why is it not more widely accepted?" written by James P. Carter, MD, DrPH, Professor and Head of the Nutrition Section, Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana.
Dr. Cranton also has a direct link to your page, so everybody that visits his pages can read both sides of the argument. The link is found in the article "Busting the Quackbusters". I have read all of his pages, and I have your page at Quackwatch, and I think the arguments FOR EDTA Chelation Therapy are strong enough that if I were in the position that I needed bypass surgery, I would be willing to try chelation therapy before.
Besides, you only say "EDTA Chelation Therapy has been proven not to work" but the title of my message which you are answering is "EDTA Chelation Therapy as a Preventive" and what I want is to remove the lead and mercury which is in my body...
[Comment: The body is capable of supporting some minimal levels of lead and mercury without detriment. Since EDTA Chelation Therapy can have negative as well as positive consequences, it seems to me that you would first want to have some evidence that your lead/mercury load is harming (or has the potential to harm) you before choosing it. Only if your evaluation of the overall benefit of reducing that load is greater than the overall harm that may be incurred, would it be wise to proceed. --Tom]
As I understand it, EDTA Chelation Therapy (and DMSA, which is oral, for mercury) is the best way to remove lead and mercury from my brain and blood and bones. The mercury probably got into my body because of amalgams, which both your site and the American Dental Association continue to defend. I am absolutely convinced that any amount of mercury in my brain is not good, [One should always question such absoluteness.--Tom]
and that there can be no doubt that the mercury in amalgams leaked, either when it was placed into my teeth or later. If man could get to the moon, if a stealth bomber could be built, if artificial hearts have been developed, then surely there is no logical reason why an amalgam without mercury cannot be developed.
[This does not follow at all. The laws of physical reality preclude the possibility of many things being developed, no matter how hard we try.--Tom]
I don't care if the American Dental Association insists that mercury is such a unique substance, that it lends strength or whatever to amalgams. I don't care about that. Mercury is a terrible poison in our bodies,
[It can be, but there is no evidence that it always is so at minimal levels.--Tom]
and I don't want it there
[and that is certainly your right--Tom].
I am not going to actually have the amalgams that are already in my teeth removed, because I think it will be too expensive, too painful, and probably will cause more mercury to enter my body than if I leave it alone.
[I think this is wise--Tom]
But I have already asked my dentist not to put in any more mercury containing amalgams into my mouth in the future, (which means in a filling I will get next week) or into the mouths of my children. I think the position of the American Dental Association to defend an obvious poison is both obstinate and dangerous.
[It is their judgement of a wise tradeoff between various evaluations of cost, benefit and potential harm. Decisions like yours will
do more to change such policies than anything else. --Tom]
It is true that millions of mercury containing amalgams have been used for 150 years, it is true that they are cheap, but it is not
true that they are not the principal cause that mercury gets into our bodies. [The last clause is incorrect. That they are the "principal cause" is quite unproven --Tom]
Certainly it didn't get there from thermometers! So... thank you for your site, which I think has many good things about it. But
many people say EDTA Chelation Therapy has been good for them, to avoid heart surgery, as a treatment for gangrene, and to
lessen free-radical damage. After reading Dr. Cranton's arguments for it, and Quackattack's arguments against it, I have
decided to take the treatment, which I began last week according to Dr. Cranton's protocol. [Would you please post a summary of what is your current level of mercury and why you think it is harming you? Then after your treatment is complete, you can let us know what is your new level and report any changes to your mental and physical well being. --Tom]
07-31-98 John Cranton, RN mrc@drcranton.com
You can find a wealth of information on chelation therapy at drcranton.com
This site is the largest chelation information site in the world and contains articles, rebuttals to critics, a form to find chelation providers, and a list of studies done with EDTA chelation therapy.
07-31-98 Kingsley G. Morse Jr. sluggish35@hotmail.com
A study has shown that EDTA also helps prevent cancer. Since heart disease and cancer kill so many people, the life extending
implications are considerable. [I think this is incorrect. I don't remember the exact number, but I remember seeing an estimate that if all heart disease and cancer were eradicated, the average human lifespan would only increase by "a few" years. --Tom]
The study is described in: "Ninety Percent Reduction in Cancer Mortality After Chelation Therapy With EDTA", Walter Blumer, M.D. and Elmer M. Cranton, M.D., Journal of Advancement in Medicine, Volume 2, Numbers 1/2, Spring/Summer 1989, p 183.
Here's the article's abstract:
"Mortality from cancer was reduced 90% during an 18-year follow-up of 59 patients treated with calcium-EDTA. Only one of
the 59 treated patients (1.7%) died of cancer while 30 of 172 nontreated control subjects (17.6%) died of cancer (P=0.002).
Death from atherosclerosis was also reduced. Treated patients had no evidence of cancer at the time of entry into this study.
Observations relate only to long term prevention of death from malignant disease, if chelation therapy is begun before clinical
evidence of cancer occurs. Controls and treated patients lived in the same neighborhood, adjacent to a heavily traveled highway in a small Swiss city. Both groups were exposed to the same amount of lead from automobile exhaust, industrial pollution and other carcinogens. Exposure to carcinogens was no greater for the studied population than exists in most other metropolitan areas throughout the world. Statistical analysis showed EDTA chelation therapy to be the only significant difference between the controls and treated patients to explain the marked reduction in cancer mortality." [Comment: Not to denigrate the importance of this study, it is the kind for which it is very easy to miss some important differences between the chelated and control groups. Also, it does not state if the controls were selected beforehand or after, which can make a vast difference. If is the kind of study which needs replication (possibly several times) before it should be taken as gospel. --Tom]
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:39:06 -0400
From: John Adams
Subject: AntiAging
To: Ellis
Hi Ellis,
It was great receiving your E-mail. It's nice to know that our technology like E-mail and the web make for widespread and
speedy communication -- and that biomedical technology is also moving quickly. I've attached your quesions, and added some
answers and ideas below them. Let's talk via phone sometime. Just E-mail me your number and I'll call you. Regards,
Johnny
*****************************************************
ET: Also... is it correct to be taking DHEA AND Pregnenolone together? I thought pregnenolone ("pregnant alone") is the
precursor of DHEA.
DIFFERENT EXPERTS WILL SAY DIFFERENT THINGS ABOUT THIS. ONE THING I LEARNED FROM
ATTENDING THE A4M CONFERENCE LAST DECEMBER IS THE IMPORTANCE OF PREG IN PRESERVING
THE BRAIN. PREG DOES SOME THINGS THAT DHEA CAN'T DO, AND I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE MY DHEA
SUPPLEMENTATION TO PREG CONVERSION ALONE. ANYWAY, THIS COMBINATION IS ON THE
RECOMMENDATION OF A DOCTOR I'M WORKING WITH WHO I REGARD AS REALLY MASTERFUL IN THE
AREA OF ANTIAGING MEDICINE, NATURAL MEDICINE, AND PARTICULARLY HORMONES. (RAY
SCRUGGS, MD, COSTA MESACA, 949-631-9047)
ET: Another thing... I would be very careful with the testosterone. DHEA and Growth Hormone should both be helping you to
make more testosterone, so I think you would have plenty with that alone. Testosterone can be a knife of two edges. Not only
can it affect the prostrate to grow, I think, but it might also be tricky if you make your own glands get "sleepy".
Have you had your blood tested to see what your levels of testosterone are?
AGREED. BUT AFTER GH, TESTOSTERONE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPLEMENT FOR A GUY. MY
LITTLE PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEVELOPED AND IS SUPERVISED BY A COUPLE OF MDS WHO ARE EXPERT
IN ALL THIS. ON GOING TESTING IS IMPORTANT (MORE ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE IN THIS LATER).
ALTHOUGH DHEA CONTRIBUTES TO TESTOSTERONE, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT HOW
YOU KNOW THAT GROWTH HORMONE ALSO CONTRIBUTES TO TESTOSTERONE. REGARDING SLEEPY
GLANDS, IF THEY'RE NOT DOING THEIR JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE, I WOULD MUCH RATHER TAKE MY
CHANCES AND DO WHAT IT TAKES TO RESTORE TO A LEVEL THAT WILL PRESERVE THE WHOLE BODY.
THE SAME GOES FOR ANTIOXIDANTS, OR ANY SUPPLEMENT.
ET: I am on a "not so strict" low-fat diet. Usually I have two very good (ie, "no fat") meals a day... breakfast and supper...
lunch is usually "low fat" or "medium high fat". But if I go to a banquet, I throw my diet to the wind and I eat a lot of fat and
delicious things... I want to live a long time, but I don't want to be bored to death... Eating is one of the pleasures of Life, so I
am happy to break my low-fat regimen now and then (once a day, plus maybe one or two splurges each week) Between meals
I only eat fruit or fruit juice or coffee with non-fat skim milk or Diet Coke. Diet Coke is, for me, the equivalent of drinking
water. It has zero calories, zero sugar, and in my opinion does me absolutely no harm... so, I know it is anti-establishment, but
that is how I feel about it, and so I often will have a Diet Coke or other Diet drink instead of a Capuccino. I enjoy coffee, so I
drink coffee. I trained one restaurant to make my Capuccino with no-fat skim milk, and it worked so well that now they sell it
to everybody else, and it is a big hit with them. Most restaurants in Mexico think that no-fat milkis not in demand, so they don't
even carry it, until I raise a big fuss about it.
SAME HERE. YEAH, A GUY'S GOT TO HAVE A LITTLE FUN SOMETIMES. HOWEVER, I'LL PROBABLY GET
GOING SOON WITH MORE SERIOUS CALORIC RESTRICTION. WHEN I FIRST TRIED THIS ABOUT A YEAR
AGO, I STARTED LOOKING KIND OF DRAWN AND OLDER. I USED TO DO A LOT OF MENTAL EXERCISE
TO PROGRAM OUT THE DESIRE FOR "UNHEALTHY" FOODS, WHICH WORKS FOR ANYTHING -- JUST
WRITE DOWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER 15 DIFFERENT TIMES THRUOUT THE DAY WHATEVER IT IS YOU
WANT TO MAKE HAPPEN. IT HAS TO BE STATED IN A POSITIVE WAY, FOR EXAMPLE "THE DESIRE FOR
UNHEALTHY FOODS HAS LEFT ME. I WILL BE INTERESTED IN AND WILL EAT ONLY HEALTHFUL, LOW
FAT AND LOW CALORIE FOODS" (ETC. - WHATEVER MAKES SENSE FOR YOU)
I WAS SURPRISED THAT AFTER JUST 1/2 DAY OF THIS, I JUST WASN'T INTERESTED IN JUNK FOOD
ANYMORE. ALSO, I HOPE YOU WILL JUST RUN OUT AND BUY THE "MANIFEST YOUR DESTINY" AND
ACCOMPANYING "MEDITATIONS FOR MANIFESTING" TAPES BY WAYNE DYER.
ET: I don't know what "Regenesis" is... I live in Mexico, so perhaps you can explain this to me, since this is the first time it is
mentioned to me.
REGENESIS IS A NEW ORAL HGH SPRAY. REGENESIS 1 SEEMS TO BE JUST PRECURSORS, ETC., AND I'M
TRYING REGENISIS PRO, WHICH I BELIEVE IS ONLY AVAILABLE THRU DOCTORS. (BUT I WASN'T ON INJECTIONS VERY LONG AND I WASN'T USING VERY MUCH), BUT I'LL KNOW WHEN I GO BACK FOR THE IGF-1 TEST IN ABOUT A MONTH. I GOT IT FROM MY OTHER ANTI-AGING DOCTOR, WHO IS ALSO EXCELLENT, DR. JACK PALMER IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 949-644-4114. I CHECKED OUT DR. CRANTON'S WEBPAGE -- THANKS, HE IS VERY INFORMATIVE. HE RESPONDS VERY NEGATIVELY TO ORAL HGH. I GUESS I'LL KNOW WHEN I GO BACK FOR THE IGF-1 TEST.
ET:What is Kava?
IT'S KIND OF LIKE ST. JOHN'S WORT OR VALERIAN ROOT. A NATURAL HERB. THERE ARE DIFFERENT
SOURCES AND DIFFERENT FORMULATIONS, WHICH SEEM TO WORK DIFFERENTLY WITH DIFFERENT
PEOPLE, SO YOU HAVE TO TEST IT. I RECOMMEND SMALL AMOUNTS AT FIRST. IT HAS EVEN BEEN
USED TO SUCCESSFULLY TREAT NERVOUSNESS AND ANXIETY.
ET: What amount of Genotropin are you taking? How long have you been taking it? Why did you choose Genotropin instead
of Humatrope? What IGF-1 level have you, after how long, and what level would you like to have?
DR. SCRUGGS AND DR. PALMER RECOMMENDED IT. IT COMES IN 1 CONTAINER AND IS EASIER TO USE.
ET: I took 1 i.u. of Humatrope for one month. Then I had a bloodtest and I had an IGF-1 level of 360 ng/ml.
EXCELLENT RESULTS. IS THAT 1 IU EACH DAY? AM OR PM?
ET: I would like to get to 500, keep it there for six months, then drop back to 360. So I increased to 1.30 i.u. of Humatrope,
and I still am in the second month, so I don't know if I have reached 500 or not. The reason I want to drop down to 360 is
because nobody knows what 50 years of having a 360 level can do, and I intend to be around at least 50 years more (I will be
53 on August 18) I think there is a possibility that it could be making our bones grow very, very slightly, and that 50 years from
now the accumulated growth could cause us to have carpal tunnel syndrome... so in order to avoid that, I want to do it like I
said.
LET'S HOPE THAT IN A LOT LESS THAN 50 YEARS WE'LL HAVE SOMETHING THAT WILL REPAIR AND
EVEN REDESIGN THE DNA AND KEEP US YOUNG INDEFINITELY. I'M SHOOTING FOR REVERSING THE
AGING PROCESS. SURE, IT'S A LOFTY GOAL, BUT NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE PERSON WHO
REFUSES TO LISTEN TO REASON.
ET: Nobody can say now if I am right or I am wrong. I might be cutting my life short an extra 30 years, but I'll publish the
result 50years from now, if I'm still here, and let others know if I was right or if I was wrong. Apparently you do a lot more
weight training than I do. I don't care about big muscles, I only care about a nice looking body, which I already have in my own
eyes, for me, so I do some weight training with low amounts of weights and a lot of repetitions.
I'M NOT GOING FOR THE SUPER-SIZE LOOK EITHER, BUT MUSCLE BURNS CALORIES -- A VERY GOOD THING.
ET: I am interested in taking Deprenyl and Hydergine but I still have not started, because I can't get Deprenyl in Mexico easily.
Do you take these two together or separate them, and when... or it doesn't matter?
SO FAR I'M TAKING THEM TOGETHER -- SEE "LIBERTARIAN SOLUTIONS" INFO BELOW.
ET: I also am looking for Acetyl L-Carnitine.
TRY THE LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION -- WWW.LEF.ORG
ET: I found "Nootropyl" is available in the pharmacy over the counter. It is Piracetam. I am interested in it because it is said to
reduce lipofuscin buildup in the brain. (Lipofuscin is "age spots" that appear on your hands, and the same aging related pigment
is messing up your brain) But... I don't know if I can take it and also Deprenyl and/or Hydergine, so first I will ask these
questions on the various boards... Nootropyl is less expensive than Hydergine, which costs about $30 dollars per 30 pills, and I
don't know what Deprenyl will cost me to get it... It costs about $1 per pill through the Internet, plus shipping and maybe
customs to Mexico.
VINPOCETIN IS ABOUT THE SAME THING AS PIRACETAM, BUT JUST A LITTLE BETTER. THEY ARE BOTH AVAILABLE THRU Anti-Aging Systems.
ET: What are the "detoxification nutrients" and what are you trying to detoxify? I am taking EDTA Chelation therapy to
detoxify my blood and bones and brain of lead and mercury and aluminum and other heavy metals. You can read about EDTA
Chelation therapy on various places in the Internet, but the most complete I have found is www.drcranton.com
According to Dr. Cranton, you cannot detoxify lead effectively with oral pills, and in fact you can do damage to yourself, since
the chelator has to pass through the intestines and a certain part of it will get stuck together with a metal. So he advises only the
intravenous kind of chelation therapy.
WE ALL PICK UP A LOT OF POLLUTION - THE THINGS I'M TAKING HELP GET IT OUT OF THE LIVER AND
ELSEWHERE. TYLERLABS PHONE # IN OREGON IS
800-569-9705.
LAST NOTE: CONSIDER ADDING GLUTATHIONE WITH CYSTEINE TO YOUR ANITOXIDANT REGIMIN,
ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER THINGS IN MY ANTIOXIDANT LIST. THEY ALL WORK TOGETHER. A
GREAT SOURCE OF NUTRIENTS IS THE LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION (WWW.LEF.ORG). THEY PUT A
LOT OF MONEY INTO RESEARCH AND ARE POLITICALLY ACTIVE, AND I HOPE YOU WILL BECOME A
MEMBER.
Enjuvenate The herbal Human Growth Hormone
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 19:55:34 GMT
From: Nick
We have news on a pre-release of an herbal supplement that will offer the benefits of HGH. If you are interested in obtaining
information on this topic, please e-mail and place the word "HGH" in the subject box. hgh@npnhost.com
=====================
How can anybody believe a "herbal" human growth hormone?
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: Enjuvenate The herbal Human Growth Hormone (Nick)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 02:09:12 GMT
From: Ellis Toussier
How can anybody believe this, about a "herbal" human growth hormone? If it is for real, then we should be able to read about it
in Scientific American, Time magazine, the front page of the New York Times, etc. There are a lot of companies trying to do
business by taking advantage of the real comments people are making about the recombinant HGH, but I will only take
recombinant HGH for myself...
====================
Keeping an open Mind
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: Enjuvenate The herbal Human Growth Hormone (Nick)
Re: How can anybody believe a "herbal" human growth hormone? (Ellis Toussier)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 03:00:46 GMT
From:
I admit it is easier to disregard something we don't understand as opposed to keeping an open mind. Nobody is knocking
hGH, the status qua as everyone is familiar with. All we are offering is an alternative for people that are looking for it.
Information has been provided for us that state hGH levels can be increased with proper supplementation. We are already
being provided with positive testimonials from people taking the herbal supplement, please continue taking your form of hGH.
Besides how many other companies do you know of that offer a sixty-day unconditional money back guaranty? In other words,
if you try this product out and believe it's nothing more then snake oil. You have 60 days from the date of purchase to ask for a
refund. I don't know about you, but these leads me to believe that the company must feel very confident of what it's marketing.
=================
I agree with open mind!
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: Enjuvenate The herbal Human Growth Hormone (Nick)
Re: How can anybody believe a "herbal" human growth hormone? (Ellis Toussier)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:41:15 GMT
From:
There are herbal precursors to hgh that are safe and effective at stimulating the pitutary gland to secret your own growth
hormone. I find this exciting, because it opens the door to the average person to use it. The cost of the drug is very expensive.
The precursor is afordable for most people.
===================
I agree!
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: Enjuvenate The herbal Human Growth Hormone (Nick)
Re: How can anybody believe a "herbal" human growth hormone? (Ellis Toussier)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:42:48 GMT
From: Nancy
There are herbal precursors to hgh that are safe and effective at stimulating the pitutary gland to secret your own growth
hormone. I find this exciting, because it opens the door to the average person to use it. The cost of the drug is very expensive.
The precursor is afordable for most people.
=================
The Loyal Troops agree! Show us IGF-1 levels above 350 ng/ml...!
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: Enjuvenate The herbal Human Grouth Hormone (Nick)
Re: How can anybody believe a "herbal" human growth hormone? (Ellis Toussier)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 16:37:03 GMT
From: Ellis Toussier
The loyal troops agree! So now show all of us results of before-and-after blood tests demonstrating an increase of IGF-1 levels
higher than 350, and I will agree also. Otherwise, I will stay with the recombinant HGH, and you do as you wish.
=====================
Note how a request for information results in a deluge of recruiting efforts:
=====================
HGH information
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 05:11:52 GMT
From:
I'm trying to find out more about growth hormone supplement/replacement to reverse ageing . I would appreciate if anyone can
provide me with some basic info or point me in the right direction
===============
Reponse to "HGH information".
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: HGH information
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 21:56:44 GMT
From: Larry Cobb
I noticed your inquiry about HGH and am responding to let you know that there is a company that was launched on June 1,
1998 that has developed a delivery process for HGH that is a milestone in HGH therapy. Whereas HGH has to this point been
administered only via injections, due to the size of the protein molecule in HGH, this company has develeloped a process for
the administration of HGH via a oral spray that will revolutionize HGH therapy. If you would like additional information about
this exciting new development, please contact me at 1-800-766-0168 or E mail at larry@swcp.com. There are distributorships
available with this product also. This is exciting news! I look forward to hearing from you.
==================
In Response to "HGH Informations"
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: HGH information
Re: Reponse to "HGH information". (Larry Cobb)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:01:41 GMT
From: Matthew Patterson, Jr.
Regenesis 1 is a fine average product not as great as we all thought.
Why sell Regenesis 1 for $150/month? When I feel I have not only a better product source, better acceptance, a more honest
company, an a greater chance to get the HGH miracle in ALL people's hands on a reoccuring basis.
I feel our basic goal is to help as many people get on the anti-aging bandwagon then worry about making money. QLC is and
was the first to open the people's eyes but their past history of their founders and the cost of the product will and have closed
the door on them as soon as they opened it.
================
hGH update
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: HGH information
Keywords: growth hormone, age reversal, herbs
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:27:46 GMT
From: Clare
In response to your question - a cutting edge product is just being released this July that will safely and naturally increase hGh
levels - benfit include: gain strength, stamina and energy decrease body fat reduce wrinkles normalise blood pressure restore
lost hair colour and lost hair improve sex life be in better mood restore size of liver, pancreas, heart, and other organs that
shrink with age increase memory and mental clarity improve sleep.
This product will be in limited supply initially, if you would like more details leave me a message at
WhitmorePrice@compuserve.com or phone (416) 693 8923
=================
"Grow Young on HGH"
Forum: The Worldhealth Network
Re: HGH information
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 12:16:47 GMT
From: Ellis Toussier
You must be aware that as soon as you ask for information about GH you will be beseiged by people wanting to recruit you to
sell their brand of spray or nutritional supplements, usually in a multi-level marketing company. I have nothing against multi-level
marketing companies, but in the case of growth hormone you will mostly be wasting your time with their products. Some will do
"nothing good or nothing bad, but just exactly the opposite." Others might increase your natural growth hormone in your body,
but probably not enough for true rejuvenation, which is what you want.
You will not find the answers to your questions in multi level companies, as good as their vitamins might be. You will find the
answers in Dr. Ronald Klatz's book, "Grow Young On HGH" and you will find the answers in Dr. Elmer Cranton's site, and
you will find the answers at the Life Extension Foundation and some others. But there is a mountain of other information
available that makes it more difficult to find the really good information available, and they all want you to buy and sell what they
are pushing. Buy their vitamins and nutritional products, but not their growth hormone or so-called secretagogues, unless you
only want limited results.
You should also read Dr. Rudman's experiment of 1990 very carefully and underline key points, such as dosages (which are
now believed to have been too high), results, etc. and read the posts on this message board referring to dosages.
I have put a page of links and good books to have in your library, that I trust, at:
Life Links
You can read my experience of almost three months, which is not a lot, at:
Live Long!
I know I will be attacked for being narrow minded, for not wanting to know more about the products, etc. I know a lot about
many nutritional products and supplements, and I take them myself, but not as inexpensive substitutes for growth hormone.
There is only one way to take growth hormone, for me, and for you if you don't want to lose time and throw away your money,
and that is the recombinant growth hormone taken by subcutaneous injection once or twice a day, under the supervision of a
doctor, or of yourself after you have learned as much as you can, and still with the supervision of a doctor.
=================
From: "Robert C. Meyer"
To: Ellis Toussier
Subject: Re: "Grow Young on HGH"
Ellis, as you know I totally agree with you.
=================
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