If you want to GROW TALLER and DOCTORS have told you that YOU CANNOT GROW TALLER, this might be one of the most important pages you will find on the internet, in your life! MAYBE YOU CAN GROW TALLER! READ IT NOW!
Welcome to Ellis Toussier-Ades Bigio-Antebi's
HGH to Grow Taller
Question: Until What Age Can a Boy or a Girl Grow Taller?
The answer is not certain, but you can see that "the average boy" is still growing taller at age 18, and "the average girl" has very little growth left after age 15. However, bear in mind that these charts refer to growth in boys and girls who DID NOT TAKE INJECTIBLE GROWTH HORMONE.
Boys Growth Chart Age to Stature, 2 to 20... (Download Adobe .pdf file)
Girls Growth Chart Age to Stature, 2 to 20... (Download Adobe .pdf file)
Download Adobe Boys Growth Chart, Age 2 to 20, 5 to 95 percentile
Download Adobe Girls Growth Chart, Age 2 to 20, 5 to 95 percentile
The Experience of a 5 foot 2 inch, 18 year old boy
29 January, 2009
"Pediatric Endocrinologists in New York CATEGORICALLY REFUSED to give my 5 year old son growth hormone because he measured 104 ctms. which put him in the 20th percentile. When I kept insisting that I would like for him to grow taller, to appease me they scheduled the x-ray for one year later! In ONE FULL MONTH from August 10 to September 12, 2008 he almost did not grow at all!
I found you and we flew to Mexico to consult with you and your doctor. We started giving my son growth hormone on Sept 12, 2008.
We just measured him again on Jan. 24, 2009. He now measures 109 cmts.! So in 4.5 months with growth hormone he has grown 5 ctms, i.e. TWO WHOLE INCHES!!! He is now just slightly less than the 50th percentile for his age.
Needless to say we are ever grateful to you. Thank God we found you!!
(name withheld by request)
Update: April, 2011
My son got HGH every month for 24 months straight, then we took a 6 month break and started up again this past month.
In 2 years my son went from about the 10th percentile on the growth charts to over the 75th percentile, growing an average of 5 inches EACH YEAR compared to the 3 inches average yearly growth of boys in the 90th percentile in their 5th & 6th year !
And having forgotten how he was the shortest kid in his kindergarten class,
my son's self-perception now is that he is a TALL kid! - K. (e-mail received April 27, 2011)
NOTE: I have edited the note to maintain the identity of the boy and his mother confidential, however this is a true story and a true testimonial. - Ellis
The mother of an 18 year old boy who was 5 foot 2.5 inches tall and who is taking injectible growth hormone to grow taller under the supervision of his doctor in Mexico wrote:
May 15, 2005
I know it's a little early to be gauging the results of the growth hormone
so soon but I wanted to let you know how it has done so far.
My son B. has been taking 4 and a half iu every day for one week and we have been keeping track of his height. Brandon is 18 and was 5' 2 1/2" when he started. We double-checked to make sure, and after one week at this dosage he has grown a little over 1/2 inch!
Hopefully this keeps up. We just wanted to let you know how it is working for him, and to say thanks!
Feel free to put this story on your website and we will definitely let you know how his growth continues.
Thanks again for everything... we are so glad we listened to you and your doctors, and didn't listen to the doctors (pediatricians and endocrinologists!) who told us HGH therapy is "too risky" for a young boy.
Note: Growth hormone therapy was denied to this young boy by his endocrinologist in his country, even though it was his wish and his mother's wish, because he is considered to be "too tall"... growing taller just because it is your wish is considered to be "immoral" and "unnatural"... you must be a midget. If B. would have been 4' 10" then growth hormone therapy would have miraculously become "no risk" and he would have been able to receive treatment to grow to at least 5'7"... but since he is 5' 2.5", he is considered to be "too tall"!!!
May 31, 2005
B: I've made some progress as of last night... I grew 3/8 of an inch (just shy of 1/2") it seemed like overnight. Overall I have grown just under an inch with this first box (126 iu) Now I am 5' 3 1/2" and we are hoping I continue to have such great results. I'm so glad we found you on the internet. Finding you has been the best thing that has happened to me... I'll let you know how much I continue to grow. - B.
Ellis: Please explain that again... You said you grew 3/8 of an inch "overnight"... Are you saying you measured it one day and the next day you saw you grew 3/8" taller?
P.S.: Dr. Nacho is very happy to hear from you.
B: I'm not sure whether I grew that much overnight or whether we just noticed it suddenly. I may have been growing a bit in the weeks before it, but I literally did grow the majority overnight... that made my parents immediately notice I had grown. The same happened the first time I grew half an inch... I think I am constantly growing slowly, but have sudden spurts every two weeks or so. - B.
As far as my progress, I started at 5' 2" 1/2 and I am now about 5' 4. Not bad for only 4 months! I will definitely keep you informed on how it continues to work because from what I remember, you said people do not usually see results until 6 months and after only 4 months I have grown an inch and a half. I'm very thankful that my mom found your site on the internet. If we hadn't, I would have never gotten growth hormone. I thought about going back to the doctor that said I couldn't take growth hormone and having her measure me now, to prove a point.
Case Study of an 18 month old girl in Mexico
Victoria, age 18 months, growth chart shows she is in bottom 3% of height, expected height at age 18 would be about 5' 0". Victoria's mother would like
her daughter to be average size for a woman when she is adult. Treatment is begun immediately. A decision is taken to not take x-rays that "prove" that she can still grow, to avoid unnecessary danger from x-rays which is
A total of 36 iu was used, in October and November, 2004
Dose: 4 iu injectible HGH PER WEEK in ONE DOSE (to avoid crying)
Growth in TWO MONTHS: 2 inches, (5 centimeters)
Average growth PER MONTH: 2.5 centimeters
Program was suspended for FIVE MONTHS, from end of November to end of April, 2005.
Growth in FIVE MONTHS: 1 inch (2.5 centimeters)
Average growth PER MONTH: 0.5 centimeters
Permanent Growth added to Victoria's expected height: 4.0 centimeters.
Treatment is resumed in May, with two doses of 4 iu. Victoria grows another 1.0 centimeter, instead of 0.5 cms. Treatment is suspended until October.
Comments: A dose of only 4 iu once per week in an infant causes a growth of: expected 1.0 cmts + 4.0 cmts. This indicates that at a given dose, the sooner growth hormone therapy is begun, the better and more effective is injectible HGH therapy. 4.0 cmts for 36 iu is a little more than + 0.1 cmt per iu of growth hormone... If she had started later, it would have taken more growth hormone to get the same amount of growth because her body will be bigger.
5 centimeters of growth have been added to Victoria's expected height. Treatment with growth hormone will continue sporadically until 15 to 20 centimeters are added before she is age 15... There is plenty of time, and Victoria is now in bottom 40%, which is well within the "normal" height of her age group. Note that standard x-rays to determine if her bones will grow are superfluous in most cases, and might cause harm later in life, and so it is not performed to safeguard Victoria's health. One very smart doctor, here!
"MONEY SPENT SOONER, MONEY SAVED LATER!"
(NOTE: Thanks to Victoria's mother who showed me the details of this case...)
June 13, 2008
I am the mom who wrote to thank you for the sage advise you gave
me 2 years ago about HGH and the deficit in my son's growth.
He was tiny, off the growth charts tiny. His doctor agreed that
he needed HGH but the insurance company is still arguing and
refusing to pay.
Ellis: Who pays, is beside the point.
Carolyn: My son agonized over his height which we went to therapy
to try and get him to accept himself as he is- a healthy beautiful
I wrote to you and soon found a way to purchase enough HGH that
he has grown to 5'8" from 4'6" (his predicted height was not even
5'1" maybe 2")
He is 16 and 1/2 years old and has plenty of time to grow even
more. I know his height would have stopped at 5" (his dad is
tiny, paternal grandparents are 5' and under)
I also know height is not important but you should see him and
his confidence level- he is happy and beautiful.
Ellis: Who says height is not important? Why is height not
important, if it is important to the person who wants to be
taller? Why should DOCTORS be the ones who decide for a
short person, if that short person wants to grow taller, and
you have seen that growth hormone will make a person who is
probably going to grow to 5'0" because his father and
grandfather were tiny, so he probably has genes that will
determine that he is going to be tiny also...
But what is WRONG with him growing an extra 8" to 5'8" if that
is what he wanted? Why do DOCTORS not help short children to
grow taller if they are taller than 5'2" or if the doctor thinks
it is "o.k." if he is short?
Why can doctors help a short boy 5'0" grow to 5'8" but they
will not help a short boy who is 5' 3" tall to grow to 5' 8" ?
Carolyn: Life has not been easy (he lost his sister 2 years ago)
and this part his growth is the one area I directly effected to
relieve him of more agony.
- Thank you Ellis, thank you.
Ellis: I am really happy that I am not a doctor and that I have learned to use growth hormone enough so that I can help
parents of children all over the world to help their children
to grow taller... I have helped you and many others to learn
that short children can grow taller with growth hormone, even
if their genetic makeup was such that they would probably have
been very short.
This is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT post, because it shows that a
boy whose mother thinks he would have been about 5'0" could
and did grow to 5'8"... and he is now 16 years of age, he still
has a chance to grow taller, but he is already "normal" height
for a male in the United States. It has radically changed
his life, and his self confidence.
Thanks for writing. I am very moved by your post. - Ellis
Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:45:59 PM
To: Ellis Toussier (firstname.lastname@example.org)
After taking the Humatrope for just over two months, my son has now grown over 3 and a half cm taller. A result we of course are very very happy with. Keeping up this rate he will easily catch up the lost 12cm within the next year. Again I must thank you so much for helping.
My name is Diego. I live in Mexico City, and I am 13 years old.
I was a very little guy ... I was smaller than my friends, and this bothered me. I was overweight and felt I am a little guy.
One day my dad suggested that we try growth hormone and I started to inject. It does not hurt anything.
In four months I grew 6 centimeters, and I am skinnier. I am very happy that I caught up to my friends, so now I am not the little guy.
Some of my friends and family who had not seen me in four months were surprised to see me taller. I am very pleased to have grown more.
I am the father of Diego who wrote the previous testimonial.
I saw that my son was short and I knew from friends and other people in the same situation that growth hormone might help my son to grow taller.
I consulted a doctor who did blood tests and x-rays and made me spend a lot of money ... In the end he said we should let him grow at his pace and size because the "risk" of using hormone on my son did not warrant giving growth hormone.
However, I researched on the Internet, and I realized that it is not true: there are no side effects or "danger" of anything by using growth hormone in healthy children ...
So I looked for another doctor who agreed to monitor the use of the hormone, and development of my son.
My son grew from 1.45 meters to 1.51 meters in four months with the dose that the doctor prescribed, and now my son has a better weight / bulk. I've also seen that he has much more self-esteem and confidence.
I recommend to any parent in the same situation: do not be fooled, and do not panic if a doctor tells you "no"... Look for another doctor until you find one who will help you, because not all doctors agree, and not all doctors are afraid to prescribe growth hormone.
November 3, 2008
I am deeply concerned by some things you post on your grow taller website section.
First, you have a story about an 18 year old boy wherein their claims they say after starting to take the growth hormone, the boy suddenly grow half an inch overnight. Not only is this physically impossible, but it is also easily explainable.
The fact that you made no correction to these people about what REALLY happened to explain this supposed 'miracle growth overnight' would suggest you dont know even the most basic of things about height growth and have no business whatsoever recommending people to use growth hormone (or any hormonal therapy for that matter).
It is absolutely impossible for epiphyseal growth plate activity to produce via endochondral ossification such a level of longitudinal skeletal growth in such a short period of time.
This "half inch of growth overnight" is the result of morning-evening height differentials. Since you obviously arent aware of this phenomenon I must explain it to you.
When you first wakeup in the morning, you are on average 1 inch taller than you are by the evening. This is the result of fluid collecting in the cartilage discs of the spine while laying horizontal for hours during sleep. By the evening, after being active for most the day, your height will be on average 1 inch shorter than it was in the mornign, the result of cartilage spinal disc compression and loss of fluid retention.
IF someone measures their height several hours after waking up one day, then the very next day they measure their height an hour after waking up, they will magically think they grew an inch taller overnight. Common sense, let alone a proper understanding of auxology, would dismiss this is completely impossible no matter how much hormones you injected. There is simply not enough chondrocyte proliferation and hypertrophy able to occur in a 24 hour period to allow for such an occurance.
I found it extremely alarming that you did not inform these people that this supposed growth is not actual growth, but simply their measuring his height at different times of day and then trying to compare the two measurements and calculate the difference.
The ONLY way to get an accurately consistent height measurement is to conduct all measurements at the same amount of time after awaking from the same amount of time spent asleep.
For example, if you choose to measure height 30 minutes after waking up from an 8 hour sleep, then the only way to ensure future measurements will be accurate and can thus show ACTUAL skeletal growth, is to conduct all future measurements 30 minutes after waking up from an 8 hour sleep.
If you measure one day 30 minutes after waking up from an 8 hour sleep, then the next time measure 3 hours after waking up from an 8 hour sleep, they will think the person LOST height between the two measurements as they will be shorter in the second measurement.
Furthermore, if you measure after the same amount of time has passed after waking up, BUT the duration of sleep was different, for instance they slept 8 hours before the first measurement but only 4 hours before the second measurement, fluid pooling in the spinal discs will be less significant in the second measurement and therefore will also give a different, lower, measurement.
The reason this misinformed mother believed her son had physically impossible growth velocity by growing half an inch overnight (absolutely ridiculous), is because they did not know (as in you failed to inform them) that your height differs throughout the day, being tallest upon first waking up, and shortest immediately before going to bed. This is well known fact, the fact that you don't know this, is extremely alarming, if you don't even know the SIMPLEST and most common knowledge about height growth, there's no way you understand the complexities that show WHY an 18 year old cannot grow taller with growth hormone.
Ellis: note: I am not a doctor, and there is no reason why I should know the complexities that show WHY an 18 year old cannot grow taller with growth hormone... In fact, I am GLAD that I am not a doctor because I never learned these false facts. It is BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW these "complexities" that many children around the world HAVE GROWN TALLER: because I DID NOT "inform" them that they CANNOT grow taller... so they grew taller with growth hormone!
I learn from the people who write to me. In this case, I will learn from somebody who I know is mistaken to say that boys age 17, 18, 19, and 20 will not grow... I am learning that height differs up to one inch during the day and that we should measure height the same time after waking from an 8 hour sleep. Whether this is true of false, it is very easy to prove if it is true or false. So first I will measure many children and young boys and girls, (and assuming that it will be true...) from now on I will recommend that height has to be taken at the same time after waking from an eight hour sleep.
You need to go learn about chondrocyte proliferative capacity exhuastion.
Ellis: I can't even spell it. What is it?
The reason why you grow slower the older you get is because the chondrocyte cells of the epiphyseal growth plate become exhuasted of their proliferative capacity (ability to divide the cell into two cells). This CANNOT be restored once its been exhuasted (growth hormone is clinically proven incapable of restoring it).
Ellis: I suppose it is clinically proven that boys age 17, 18, 19, and 20 cannot grow taller, either... So I won't accept this clinically proven fact as true.... but I will accept that it might be true for some boys. - Ellis
The ONLY way to restore the rate of growth is by increasing mesenchymal stem cell recruitment into the epiphyseal growth plate followed by stimulation of the MSC's to undergo differentiation into chondrocytes instead of osteoblasts, something regulated by BMP's (Bone Morphogenetic Proteins).
This is more common knowledge about height growth. An 18 year old growing slowly cannot restore their rate of growth by taking HGH.
The REASON medical professionals do not prescribe HGH or other hormonal height therapies to teenagers above the ages of 15 or 16, is because by that age there's been significant depletion of the chondrocytes proliferative capacity.
Ellis: Well, it is a pretty bad REASON, because I have SEEN boys AND GIRLS age 16 grow taller... and their DOCTORS SAID THEY WOULD NOT PRESCRIBE HGH because they "would not grow"... then they grew two and three inches in a few months, with not too much HGH... WHERE WERE THEIR DOCTORS, then? Hiding... in shame, I hope.
I have SEEN IT HAPPEN MANY times...
I suppose it has been "clinically proven" that boys age 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 cannot grow taller, either... and this clinically "proven fact" is false, so parents: don't listen to your doctor, he is mistaken! Come to Mexico. I don't accept this clinically proven fact as true.... but I will accept that it might be true for some boys.
So that's that for your "significant depletion" of the "chondrocytes proliferative capacitive". A doctor should try to HELP his patients. You are their DOCTOR, not their JUDGE. I don't judge their MORALS for WANTING TO GROW TALLER.
I KNOW Growth Hormone will help short children to grow taller... even if they are 5 feet 3 inches tall, which is YOUR cut-off point to help young children. If you are a doctor and you don't help your patient to be WELL, then YOU should be ASHAMED of having taken the Hippocratic Oath and you DO NOT help your patient. You are not a good doctor. It is CRUEL of you to DENY to help a young patient who is SUFFERING because he is short and other children laugh at him (or her...)
I am not a doctor... but I am in Mexico. I don't NEED YOUR permission to help a young boy to grow taller. And fortunately I am not a doctor, so I never learned the INCORRECT guidelines that you have had to learn to follow.
I think is there ANY BAD RISK to TRY what they want to do to be happy? No, there isn't. It is FALSE that they MIGHT get Acromegalia... It is FALSE that they MIGHT develop Diabetes... it is FALSE that they might get cancer...
Parents of short children: If your doctor tells you that it is too "risky" ask him to SHOW YOU THE CASES where somebody developed acromegalia or cancer or diabetes... it does not exist...
It is more BALONEY in the doctor's repertory of lies... "It is too risky"... BALONEY... There are NO RISKS in taking HGH, because there are NO SIDE EFFECTS... You have EVERYTHING TO GAIN and NOTHING TO LOSE (except money) by trying to help your child to grow taller and to be happy for the rest of his life... with HGH.
It is not GUARANTEED that it will work, but if he is less than 25 years old, I have seen it work MANY TIMES in MEXICO after the kid had been DENIED medical help in other countries... especially one to the North of Mexico...
So I HELP THEM because YOU (endocrinologists) won't help them. Thanks.
(I take them to MY doctors, who are great doctors anyways...) You've created a vacuume that I am able to fill with LOVE, because I love people... and I am grateful that I can HELP them... and I AM NOT A DOCTOR.
Where did all the DOCTORS go? I dunno. But if you can't get help in your country, come to MEXICO... I will take you to a doctor who will help you here. - Ellis
HGH works by increasing the rate of chondrocyte proliferation and hypertrophy, BUT if the chondrocytes capacity for proliferation has been exhuasted, then they cannot be stimulated to proliferate no matter what.
HGH CANNOT increasing the number of times a chondrocyte can proliferate, therefore it cannot restore the rate of growth.
Ellis: I will be sure to inform all the boys age 17, 18, 19, and 20 who I have seen or who have written to tell me that they grew 2 inches taller or more with HGH that a doctor says it is impossible, they should not be happy.
When HGH is administered to younger children whose epiphyseal chondrocytes still have significant capacity remaining for proliferation, then HGH (as well as androgens such as testosterone, oxandrolone, fluoxymesterone, etc) can stimulate FASTER proliferation of the chondrocytes, therefore increasing the velocity of height growth.
BUT the chondrocytes will then become depleted of their proliferative capacity SOONEr than they would naturally, because they are dividing more rapidly.
The REASON HGH can increase final adult height is not because of the proliferative stimulating properties, because if a chodnrocyte proliferates 100x in 1 year or 100x in 10 years, it's still proliferating only 100 times. Instead HGH increases final adult height by increasing the potency of hypertrophy of the newly proliferated chondrocytes in the hypertrophic zone of the epiphyseal growth plate.
Therefore HGH works through these two primary ways on the cellular activity inside the epipyseal growth plates of the long bones:
1) HGH stimulates chondrocyte proliferaiton, therefore accelerating the rate of height growth achieved in a certain period of time.
2) HGH stimulates more potent chondrocyte hypertrophy therefore it allows the growth plate to produce a greater length of skeletal mass during osteoblast ossification following chondrocye apoptosis, resulting in marginally increased final adult height.
NOTES FOR YOU:
HGH is the LEAST effective and MOST EXPENSIVE way to increase height through hormonal therapies. ANDROGEN therapies with testosterone, oxandrolone, fluoxymesterone, or other anabolic androgenic steroids, result in up to 400% MORE growth in the same amount of time verse human growth hormone.
Furthermore, androgen therapies are just a FRACTION the cost of HGH. HGH, depending on brand and other factors, can cost up to $10,000/year for therapy.
Ellis: More baloney. MOST of that $10,000 you mention is DOCTOR FEES, and cost of UNNECESSARY X-RAYS and other tests, not the cost of GROWTH HORMONE.
I have seen a beautiful but short 18 month old baby girl grow 4 inches in three years, with less than $1000 total cost, in Mexico... those 4 inches will stay with her ALL HER LIFE... her parents intend to help her to add another 2 or three inches someday, so she will be about 5'7" tall, because that is what her parents want for their daughter to be: a beautiful and healthy and TALL woman... They gave her beauty, and God gives her good health... and with the help of God and Eli Lilly, I help her to be TALL.
And I know many parents who have spent no more than $2000 to $3000 per inch to add height to their children.
Androgens on the otherhand, with the exception of the ridiculously overpriced Oxandrolone, can cost as little as $500/year for therapy.
Ellis: It is more "dangerous" to give testosterone to a little boy or girl than to give them growth hormone. But it is not dangerous enough so that I wouldn't try it. Thanks for the suggestion. I learn from you, too. I learn from whoever will teach me new tricks. Thanks. - Ellis
Additionally, in the past decade auxologists have discovered an even greater way to grow taller hormonally (in MALES ONLY). By using anti-breast cancer drugs called Aromatase Inhibitors (AI's), particularly those of the triazole family; Letrozole (Femara®) and Anastrozole (Arimidex®). AI's work by reducing estrogen levels, this significantly delays skeletal maturation and therefore significantly delays when the epiphyseal growth plates fully fuse.
It is believed that by reducing estrogen, you are actually able to INCREASE the proliferative capacity of chondrocytes something no other therapy can do. This is because it is believed that estrogen lowers the proliferative capacity of chondrocytes. Estrogen is the SOLE hormone responsible for fusion of the growth plates, and is why females are shorter than males and stop growing far sooner than males.
Several unique individuals have been identified whose bodies lacked the aromatase enzyme, an enzyme that turns a males testostrerone into estrogen. These individuals continued growing taller far far longer than their peers, well into their 30's and would have continued growing taller forever. They were of extemely abnormally tall stature, and their bone age was incredibly low and therefore growth plate maturation was massively delayed explaining why they continue growing taller.
To treat these individuals they administered copious amounts of estrogens, soon after this therapy starting, the individuals whose bodies didn't produce estrogen naturally, quickly underwent increased bone age maturation and epiphyseal growth plate fusion, thereby stopping their growth.
Ellis: to give MALES estrogen, sounds pretty crazy to me. I don't recommend it. I would have stopped their growth with a few candy bars every day. CHEAP and NOT DANGEROUS. - Ellis
Letrozole and Anastrozole are INCREDIBLY cheap, costing as little as $100 per YEAR to use. They are also LEGALLY available. They are classified as RESEARCH CHEMICALS for the time being and are therefore available for purchase by anyone over the age of 18, WITHOUT a prescription or anything.
The only catch is that research chemicals are not legally sold or posessable for the intent to consume. Obviously this is not easy to enforce, because theyd need to prove the person consumed the product. So you can easily and readily purchase aromatase inhibitors like letrozole and anastrozole, for VERY cheap, without any prescription or liscence or anything. Bodybuilders use them all the time for preventing steroids from causing excess estrogen and thus the development of gyno (breasts).
Legally you are not allowed to consume research chemicals though, and thus they are sold legally for "RESEARCH USE ONLY NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION", of course 90% of those who buy them are consuming them. The sellers of them can legally sell them simply by adding the above disclaimer and printing it on the label of the product, but the sellers know 99% of their customers are going to ingest them, doesn't matter.
So there you have it, ACTUAL education on height growth, something you CLEARLY do not know next to anything about.
Ellis: Maybe you feel a little SHAME that somebody who clearly does not know next to anything about making short children grow taller has ALREADY HELPED DOZENS of short children to grow taller, after YOU would have probably REJECTED to help all of them.
But don't feel shame. Better, come and join me in my forum and let's learn from each other. You can insult me, I can insult you back... and now, let's be friends. You can teach me some tricks and I can surely teach you many tricks you haven't even dreamed about before, too...
Like: do you know which is the BEST secretagogue? I will bet you are a doctor and you don't know which is the best secretagogue... - Ellis
Hope that helps you help people in the future. Growth hormone is INFERIOR, androgens and anti-estrogens are SUPERIOR.
Ellis: bullshit. Nothing else is better than growth hormone to help short children to grow taller. I suppose you are a doctor... How can you say such a dumb thing?
You don't believe me? Go to the National Institute of Healths pubmed database and conduct a search on the terms "height fluoxymesterone" or "height oxandrolone" or "height testosterone" or "height letrozole" or "height anastrozole" and you'll get HUNDREDS of clinical studies proving them far far more effective and far far cheaper than growth hormone.
I will go to the National Institute of Health's Pubmed database... but even if I read it I won't believe testosterone or tamoxifen or anything else is better than growth hormone to help children to grow taller...
November 6, 2008
Learn not to believe everything you read in the PubMed database. It is full of contradictory reports. Some bad investigators try to show that HGH or any medicine you want will cause side effects, when it is not true... But they do this because they want to sell something else, or they want to say that HGH is very risky... It is easy to fake or change results or reach false conclusions with statistics... I have seen it MANY times in reports in the NIH PubMed database...
Many reports with false conclusions are there because a manufacturer paid somebody to write a report that is favorable to the medicine that they want to sell, or are already SELLING... and once the report is in the database, it is not removed even if 50 other reports show the opposite... - Ellis
I should rephrase some things I said.
You are correct, people CAN grow taller even into their mid 20's, but the key word for this is that SOME can grow taller, not all.
Ellis: So if you agree that SOME can grow into their mid twenties, and if there are no side effects, then there is NO GOOD REASON why you should DENY ANY short children THE CHANCE to grow because their "chondrocytes capacity for proliferation" might be exhausted, since there is NO WAY a doctor can know if it has been "exhausted" unless he TRIES to make them grow with HGH! End of discussion! - Ellis
I'm going to give you some more information that should help you understand this better.
Height growth comes from two places: long bones (the legs), and vertebraes (the spine). The long bone growth plates, of which there are 4 in each leg (two in the lower leg, two in the upper leg), undergo epiphyseal growth plate fusion at certain age ranges. Fusion is when the cartilage inside the growth plate slows down enough that the formation of new bone takes over the cartilage zone and permanently turns the growth plate into a solid mass of bone therefore fusing it closed.
In males, fusion of the long bone growth plates occurs on average from ages 15 to 21. As you can see this is a HUGE variance, and is HIGHLY individualized.
The reason doctors generally don't want to prescribe HGH or such therapies to individuals over a certain age, is because there is no guarantee that individual will grow from it.
Ellis: Parents of short children are not asking for a GUARANTEE... they are asking for A CHANCE to help their children to grow taller, with a natural therapy which has NO RISK.
Unless they conduct an X-ray on the growth plates to judge wether they are fused or not. The general practice is to refuse treatment at a certain age where, in the majority of males, long bone fusion of the growth plates has likely occured.
Ellis: I am very much AGAINST the use of X-rays to learn what we already know, because they are DANGEROUS and UNNECESSARY... and inaccurate as a means to GUESS if the child will grow... I do NOT need X-rays on most children if they are less than 19 years old, because I already KNOW they will grow taller with HGH, no matter WHAT "the X-ray says" Ellis
I, like you, really don't agree with this. It comes down to the average arrogance seen amongst most doctors, that "I know more about your body than you. I'm telling you - you won't grow so it means you won't" attitude.
Ahh! We agree on something! Many endocrinologists hate me, and I hate many endocrinologists because that is precisely how I see them...
If it was my call to make, I would asess each potential patient individually, rather than applying a "blanket diagnosis" based simply on their age. By asess individually I mean I would arrange for growth plate Xrays to see for certain if they could still grow through the long bones.
Well, I advise you to forget about X-rays, I have already seen too many kids grow taller whose x-rays say their plates or whatever have "fused"... baloney... Don't believe ME... Believe the RESULTS you will get after you give 10 short children age 18 and 19 GROWTH HORMONE.
If they could, then regardless of their age, I'd seek treatment for them IF they were at least somewhat in need of the treatment from a psycho-social perspective (self-esteem wise). I don't think the "25th percentile rule" used by doctors, another "blanket diagnosis" per say, is ethically proper.
Basically someone is only eligible for treatment if they are below the 25th percentile of height for their age, gender, race, etc. This again is an arrogant blanket diagnosis.
Ellis: It not only is arrogant... it is incorrect. HGH will make TALL children who want to be taller to grow taller also. It works no matter what the child's height is, and it works no matter how tall the parents are. It works if it is in their body when they are still capable of growing taller. Don't say lies.
I would again prefer to see a determination made on an individual basis of the pateints psycho-social status in regards to their stature. Someone who is in the 50th percentile, but suffers a severe depression projected upon their stature, should be eligible for treatment if Xrays determine their growth plates have yet to fuse.
Of course there will be individuals who will not have the fusion occur until as far as into their 20's. However this is not the majority, the majority will have complete fusion by age 18 at the latest. So yes you're right SOME can grow, but to believe ALL will grow, or even to believe MOST will, is not correct at all and is proven clinically incorrect.
The only way to know for certain if someone can, is Xrays of the growth plates.
Ellis: The only way to GUESS is with x-rays... the only way to KNOW for certain if someone can grow is to GIVE THEM GROWTH HORMONE and SEE IF THEY GROW or NOT! There is NO RISK, doc. There is no risk... Why don't you try GROWTH HORMONE?
NOW here's where it gets extra complex. Each vertebrae in the spine of a growing adolescent has a growth plate located in the very center of the vertebrae's two seperate parts, and of particular importance to longitudinal growth is the anterior column of the spine, the posterior growth plate of each vertebrae doesn't contribute to longitudinal growth. The posterior element is the "spikey" wing-like part of the vertebrae that does not act as part of the spinal column. The anterior is the cylindrical part of the vertebrae that encases the spinal cord. Its the growth plate of the anterior column that contributes to height growth.
All future references to vertebrae growth plates will refer to the anterior growth plate.
The vertebraes in the back are divided into three major regions of growth plate activity. The vertebrae growth plates in the upper 3rd of the spine, undergo growth plate fusion between the ages of 11-14 on average. The growth plates in the middle third of the spine, undergo growth plate fusion around the same age as the long bones fuse, anywhere from 15-21 years old.
Most interesting is that growth plates in the lower 3rd of the spine, the lumbar region, do not undergo growth plate fusion until usually several years AFTER the long bone growth plates fuse, around 21-25 years of age.
Therefore even if the long bones of the legs growth plates have fused, longitudinal growth can still be achieved through the vertebraes of the lower back. Now obviously vertebrae growth doesn't have as much potential height to be gained as does long bone growth, but none the less, it is possible for an inch or even two, to be plausibile growth after long bone fusion has occured.
This all applies to MALES. In females, growth plates fuse significantly sooner as a result of significantly higher estrogen levels.
Ellis: Females will ALSO grow taller with growth hormone, but it has to be administered when their body is LOW in estrogen!
Why are YOU the doctor and I am not a doctor... and it is I who points this out? I also point out that Arimidex will block estrogen which is produced indirectly by the adrenal glands in women who have gone through menopause... but it will not block estrogen in young girls because they are still menstruating...
And before you suggest it, I say it is a TERRIBLE IDEA (endocrinologists do this often) to block testosterone or estrogen in young girls as many endocrinologists will do "so that their bones will not fuse" because you are messing up their sexual development... and it is not necessary to mess with their sexual development... they will grow taller whether or not their bones "have fused" if they are still young enough. I have seen girls age 16 grow taller with growth hormone.
The problem I have with comments you made in your reply, is that you talk as though it is a guarantee that everyone can grow taller even in their late teens. This is not something you can guarantee at all.
Ellis: I never said "Guarantee"... I said "No Risk..." I have seen it work many times before... Try it... You have nothing to lose except money... and money is not as valuable as happiness for the child... and you have a very good chance to exchange money to give him happiness...
Growth plate fusion is highly individualized. It depends on an individual's natural estrogen levels and aromatase enzyme levels, determined by their unique genetics.
Those with higher estrogen levels naturally, will stop growing sooner than those with lower estrogen levels naturally. Some stop growing as soon as 15 years old, others, can still grow marginally up to their mid 20's.
It also depends on an individual's chrondrocyte levels, which depends on their mesenchymal stem cell levels, and the levels of the recruitment and differentiation factors, particular bone morphogenetic proteins 2 and 6 (BMP-2 and BMP-6).
Again, the levels of these TGF super-family growth factor cytokines is highly individualized depending on a person's unique genetic makeup.
I do agree with you, there are individuals who can benefit from HGH or androgenic steroid or aromatase inhibitor therapies even into their late teens and early 20's. Exactly how much height they can achieve is impossible to predict, no matter what tools you have. Every doctor can tell you this.
Any doctor who says otherwise, is speaking out of pure ignorance or arrogance, or likely, a combination of both as is common with many doctors.
But again, HGH is the LEAST effective therapy for growing taller, and I truly mean that. Not only does it not give nearly as great results as androgenic steroids or aromatase inhibitors do, but it also requires injection (which most steroids used for height growth do not, and aromatase inhibitors are also taken orally as well), and furthermore, its extremely expensive by comparison to androgenic steroids or aromatase inhibitors.
Ellis: There is NO PROBLEM that growth hormone has to be injected. The injection is absolutely painless because the tiny needles are a miracle in themselves. Injecting children who are still growing with steroids is madness. Don't do it! Testosterone is NOT for young boys, yet. And without a doubt, it is NOT FOR YOUNG GIRLS! This is crazy!
Another factor against it, is the sensitivity of the molecule, because it is a peptide, a very large peptide as well, its extremely susceptible to molecular degredation, whereas androgenic steroids or aromatase inhibitors are far more stable compounds.
Ellis: Another myth... Growth hormone is actually very stable, and it does not degrade because it is not kept in a refrigerator... AFTER OPENING it should be kept in a refrigerator, but that is not because
the molecule is unstable... it is because BACTERIA might get INTO the vial of growth hormone, and if they do, then the BACTERIA WILL EAT THE GROWTH HORMONE because it is a PROTEIN. But in fact bacteria DOESN'T get into the vial, because the vial is shut tight... you are trying to prevent something that theoretically might happen, but in fact it doesn't happen. What I am saying is that IT IS NOT TRUE that growth hormone is a very unstable molecule. I know this for a fact, because I have USED growth hormone that was not refrigerated for several months, many times... and it is perfectly good.
I will break down the three leading hormonal therapies for promoting height growth's pros and cons;
191 amino acid Human Recombinant Growth Hormone:
- Potent stimulator of longitudinal height growth
- Mildly capable of slowing epiphyseal growth plate fusion by counterbalancing chondrogenesis verse osteogenesis within the growth plate
- Well tolerated by users when used in proper dosage range
- Requires prescription for legal use
- High risk of molecular degredation if mishandled even slightly, thereby reducing potency
- Least potent promoter of longitudinal height growth out of the 3 major hormonal therapy options
- Extremely expensive, significantly more expensive than other hormonal therapy options
- Must be injected
Oral Anabolic Androgenic Steroids
- Are taken orally
- Most powerful promoters of longitudinal height growth of any hormonal therapy
- Significantly less expensive by comparison to growth hormone therapy
- Much easier to handle without damaging
- Well tolerated by patients when used in proper dosage ranges
- Requires prescription for legal use
- Risk for virilization (male characteristic development) in females (only when used in very high dosages however)
Reversible Aromatase Inhibitors
- Are taken orally
- Does not require prescription to purchase
- Significantly delays growth plate fusion allowing patient to grow for many years longer than they would naturally
- Much easier to handle without damaging
- Cheapest of all therapies available, even costing as little as a few dollars a month if purchased in raw bulk from factories
- Well tolerated by patients when used in proper dosage ranges
- Can reduce bone mineral density after multi-year high dosage use
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERM)
- Are taken orally
- Does not require prescription to purchase
- Moderately delays growth plate fusion allowing patient to grow for several years longer than they would naturally
- Much easier to handle without damaging
- As cheap if not even cheaper than aromatase inhibitors depending on source, generally cost comparative
- Well tolerated by patients when used in proper dosage ranges
- Not as potent as other anti-estrogen therapies (aromatase inhibitiors)
- Certain SERMs actually ACCELERATE growth plate fusion, must use correct SERM
I added something I forgot to mention in my previous email, this being SERM, or, Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators. SERMs are also anti-estrogens like aromatase inhibitors and have the same outcome on delaying growth plate fusion, but not to as strong a degree as aromatase inhibitors. SERMs instead of inhibting the enzyme that turns testosterone into estrogen and therefore reducing estrogen levels, SERMs are instead synthetic estrogens that bind to estrogen receptors but then elicit a WEAKER estrogen signal at the receptor versus the body's natural estrogens.
Therefore the SERM blocks the estrogen receptors from taking the bodies much stronger naturally produced estrogen. By doing this they blunt the estrogen response in the body and thus slow growth plate fusion. SERMs are also research chemicals.
Some SERMs actually elicit a stronger estrogenic effect at certain estrogen receptors, especially those in the growth plate, and therefore can ACCELERATe growth plate fusion, an unwated pharmacology. This includes the SERM Raloxifene, something you would NOT want to use for height growth.
The only SERM I'm aware of proven to delay growth plate fusion, is the widely available Tamoxifen, so this would be the SERM to use. It is legally available without prescripotion just like aromatase inhibitors.
Ellis: note: I disagree absolutely... DO NOT USE TAMOXIFEN... Tamoxifen is POISON for male libido. You don't know this, doc... You should learn it now...
The only benefit over an aromatase inhibitor that a SERM provides, is because it doesnt reduce the bodies natural estrogen levels and because SERMs themselves are estrogens, they do not cause a loss in bone mineral density when used in the long term.
Perhaps a combo therapy of using an aromatase inhibitor for 6 months followed by 3 months of Tamoxifen (SERM) use to help restore lost bone mineral density, then followed by aromatase inhibitor therapy again and repeating the process, may be an ideal anti-estrogen therapy.
I hope this helps clarify. You can confirm these things simple by doing NIH pubmed clinical study searches on the names of the medicines I've provided combined with the word "height" and you'll get many many studies.
You'll quickly see the outcome results from androgen and anti-estrogen therapies are DRAMATICALLY higher than growth hormone therapies, because they are simply far more effective options, and far far cheaper as well.
PS: it would be nice if you inform people about the morning/evening height differentiations. It often leads to a great deal of confusion when people measure height at differnet times of day and then try to compare the two measurements, it makes it impossible to acquire an accurate result.
Hello Dancing Champ...
You didn't say who you are, or how do you know what you know, but your letter is very interesting... I am not a doctor, and I don't claim to be a doctor...
I posted what somebody wrote to me... If you would like to write to the patient or to his mother, you can write to them and I will forward your letters to them and theirs to you... (if I can find them.) and if you would like to write to his doctor in Mexico, you can also do that.
Please tell me who are you, and how do you know what you wrote above? I think you are a doctor... I can also put you in touch with doctors in Poland and other countries, and you can write to them to tell them that their patients did not really grow taller with HGH...
Of course the boy didn't grow an inch overnight. He didn't say one inch, he wrote 3/8 of one inch, which is also too much... I never said that I believed that, in fact I asked him to repeat what he said, and then he said maybe it was not overnight. This is what he wrote:
"I'm not sure whether I grew that much overnight or whether we just
noticed it suddenly. I may have been growing a bit in the weeks before
it, but I literally did grow the majority overnight... that made my
parents immediately notice I had grown. The same happened the first
time I grew half an inch... I think I am constantly growing slowly,
but have sudden spurts every two weeks or so.
The important thing about this boy is that he was 18 years old and HE DID GROW TALLER after some doctors had said he could not grow taller... a total of about 1.5 inches, and I think that is more than the "1 inch taller in the morning than at night" that you speak about...
Don't be "extremely alarmed" by anything on my website... all patients are under the care of their doctors, not me. I am not a doctor and I don't give medical advice to anybody. I am only like a radio station: I receive news and I transmit the news that is given to me. I will probably transmit the news that you have given me above... thanks... I learn from the people who write to me. - Ellis
Also see:Discussion in Rejuvenation Forum: Predicting Height, Bone Age, Son age 14, and son age 18...
Also see:More Discussion in Rejuvenation Forum: Predicting Height, Bone Age, Son age 14, and son age 18...
Also see:Discussing Possibility of Growth for Boys Rejected by Endocrinologists...
Also see:Predicting Height through Bone Age, X-Rays, Females (soon, also males...)
Also see:Discussion in Rejuvenation Forums: Joe Pizza